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How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. #3158
Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:44 AM
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I have found it interesting, as an historian, to see how humans have been, well, not trained, exactly, but at least conditioned, to a point, to accept the idea of "King and Country".

Ever since society developed from Cave Man Days, people have been encouraged to consider themselves, not so much as HUMANS, but as part of a smaller group. I am NOT saying this is necessarily bad. It is simply indicative that people are NOT inherently altruistic on a HUMAN level.

For example: I am listening to "Rule Britannia!" on repeat at present. Although I am from California, and now live in Iowa, I was trained up from my youth by Church of England clergy. Every book I read, every text I studied, was Anglo-centric. Not just "British", but specifically "English". I was taught to believe that England was the pinnacle to which human civilization could attain.

When I got my MA in History, it was of course with an emphasis in England during the Late Medieval and Early Renaissance Periods. My entire education and training was to uplift England at the expense of any other Nation-State. The only reason I am Lutheran today and not Church of England any longer is because the C of E has gotten so weird on a religious level (ie, liberal). I could no longer stand it, and went to the next closest thing.

The point that I am getting at is that, though I don't believe in mind control per se, (although I think Governments have indeed had experiments in that subject), I do believe in conditioning. The way we are nurtured is the way we will turn out.

For example, the majority of Americans are NOT nurtured the way I was. They are instead brought up to revere people like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln (with me it was Elizabeth I and Victoria). Although I consider myself a patriotic American, and think most of the NFL should be shot for disrespecting my flag and my country, I nevertheless look to England for the source of my culture and civilization.

So there IS something to be said for social conditioning, I do think. Outright mind control is hard to achieve except on a small number of people in very carefully controlled situations, but overall social conditioning is standard for the race, I think.

Back to "Rule Britannia!" It is calling forth in me the strongest of feelings for England, for Britain, for Queen, for Country. Maybe its a country I have never seen. But it is mine, nonetheless. Their imperial goal worked, at least with this English-speaker. The goal they had, of making the people of their Empire long for English culture, language, and civilization, even in America, which went its own way (but nevertheless, the Boston, Philadelphia, and New York Brahmins who until recently ran our country always WERE faux Britishers, even down to the carefully manufactured accent they spoke), worked, at least with me. Thoughts?

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Diego] #3212
Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:08 PM
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I see what you are saying.

But isn't mind conditioning essentially mind control? Either way, you are tampering with another humans brain in any event.

To your other point, the indoctrination of youth into the current paradigm in which you call simply being "brought up" is proof positive of your very own mind being manipulated.

Since we all are to certain extent.

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: JF Sabastian] #3218
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by JF Sabastian
I see what you are saying.

But isn't mind conditioning essentially mind control? Either way, you are tampering with another humans brain in any event.


I actually agree with this statement to a limited degree. I say "limited", because "mind control" implies making a person think a way that is radically foreign to their normal way of thinking. As an example, I might use Marshal Stalin in the USSR, Chairman Mao in the People's Republic of China, or the Kim Regime in the DPRK (North Korea).

In all of these cases, the leaders took a people who are not inherently minded toward leader-worship and made them worship leaders. Although one could argue that the Russians loved the Czar and perhaps did so to a degree unusual in 20th Century Europe before the Bolshevik Revolution, nevertheless, the kind of adulation and Personality Worship that Marshal Stalin created for himself was unheard of in Russian History. The same applies for what Chairman Mao did in China and certainly for what the Kims have done in the DPRK.

My point is that "mind control", as that term is generally taken to mean, is something like what those leaders did, or what Jim Jones did to his people, or things like that. It generally does NOT imply the standard social conditioning that people in the UK or the USA are given in terms of honouring "King and Country", if you will. HOWEVER, that being said, there ARE commonalities between the two, of course. Even I shall not dispute that.

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To your other point, the indoctrination of youth into the current paradigm in which you call simply being "brought up" is proof positive of your very own mind being manipulated.


I agree, at least to a limited degree. I think that was the point behind my original post. It is interesting to note how, even in democratic societies, we are all reared from Day One to honour and sustain our leaders, to fear and respect the law, and to accept, to a certain degree, that some things are normal and some things are not.

As an example, America is politically VERY polarized. But, no matter which political party you belong to, no matter how conservative or liberal you may be, if you say to another person that you admire George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Abraham Lincoln, it is almost a HERESY to disagree with that. If I respond that Lincoln really was not all that impressive, in that he definitely viewed Black people as inferior, and wanted to send them all to Africa if he freed them at all, which he wasn't dead-set on doing (he made the statement that if he could keep the Union intact by freeing all the slaves, he would, or half of them, he would, or none of them, he would), someone will look at you like you are completely out of your mind.

The same actually applies to Kennedy. If you tell someone that Kennedy was a moral reprobate who was interested only in power for himself and his family, and that he was NOT a hero during the Cuban Missile Crisis (in fact, in exchange for the Soviets removing their missiles from Cuba, he agreed to remove missiles from Encirlik (sp?), Turkey, which were 90 miles from the USSR, just as Cuba's missiles were 90 miles from the USA), you are going to be regarded as very strange, and possibly unpatriotic, by the majority of Americans, of either political party.

So I think that the point of my OP was that although what happens in America and Britain may not rise to the level of "mind control", it certainly has certain commonalities that it shares with it.

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Since we all are to certain extent.


Point taken.

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Diego] #3222
Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:13 PM
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Excellent!

Yes, the Abraham and Kennedy aspect to your point was quite nice. I often find myself in precarious positions because of taboo opinions, statements or a well timed quip (which more often than not, is not well timed)

We could then take a tangential journey down the sticky-dank🤣 topic of tribalism and what, if any role that may play within.

Dang, sounds like a paper...

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: JF Sabastian] #3234
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JF Sabastian
Excellent!

Yes, the Abraham [Lincoln] and Kennedy aspect to your point was quite nice. I often find myself in precarious positions because of taboo opinions, statements or a well timed quip (which more often than not, is not well timed)


Actually, what that means is that it was PERFECTLY well timed, and some people just aren't able to handle it.

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We could then take a tangential journey down the sticky-dank🤣 topic of tribalism and what, if any role that may play within.

Dang, sounds like a paper...


It does sound like a paper, and possibly even a book, and a damned good one at that, too!

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Diego] #3238
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:41 PM
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I do not see humanity as a united civilisation. I see bunch of smaller nations or societies that are not working on bringing the actual specy/civilisation somewhere. They fight each other for greed, power and territory control. Humans seem to be conditioned to what I call the "gang style" social behavior. Just look at the kids at school. Everyone wants to be a cool kid with other cool kids but the older cool kids from higher grade determine who is cool and who is not and they will treat the other kids as being "not in" . Humans makes is social group based on criteria that would make you rejected if you do not fit them. So at that point the nerds would have hard time including themself in the crowd because they are "not cool" and the mass kids don't want to be rejected by the cool kids so they will reject the nerds. All humanity is fragmented and based on conflict, fight and rejection. If find your social affiliation just for being with a category of person you would be difamate or rejected by another group just because you are in another "gang" . They will more judge you for your "gang" than who you really are as a individual, a living person that is more than just what the "gang" represent or the social meaning it is for other "gang" .


Plus qu'hier et moins que demain / More than yesterday and less than tomorrow
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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Xeno] #3247
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:46 AM
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Now that, XENO, is taking the human condition and perhaps radicalizing it a bit TOO much. Whilst I shall agree that humans are fairly fractioned off from one another, and that people do not very often do things for the common good, but rather, for the good of their group, their "gang", to use your terms, what YOU are describing is "Lord of the Flies"-type behavior. I have seen it in that film. I have also read it in a book, one that CLAIMS to be true, although one can legitimately question whether or not it is. "The Book of Mormon" claims that a group of people, the Lehites, came from the Holy Land to America 600 years before Christ, and divided into two groups, the Nephites, who remained civilized, and the Lamanites, who turned into a culture filled with blood-lust and "Lord of the Flies"-type behavior.

My point, without going into a sermon about a religious book to which I do NOT subscribe (although I have read it, more than once, even), is to say that, although I agree that humans are NOT in any sense united, I do NOT think it is as bad as the picture you display of us. I do not dispute that some of the things that humans can do to each other are really vicious. Having been the "uncool" kid at school growing up (the "nerd", if you will), I was bullied terribly, and hated my school experiences as a result, though I always did well academically.

At the same time, people can do wonderful things for one another. I mean, the United States have (although as a nation it is more common to use the singular "has" now, at one time in our history, the plural "have" was more appropriate) managed to survive 242 years together as a unified nation-state. Granted, it took a nasty civil war to do it. And some are suggesting that the political polarization we are experiencing now is bringing us to an 1860-like moment. Nevertheless, as of right NOW, we are still together, a nation of many different people, tongues, religions, etc.

India, with the strength of the English language, has held together in a democratic fashion, even though its people are RADICALLY different from one end of the country to another. You have extremes of culture, religion, and language there all pulling against union, but they have made it work.

I won't use Russia and China, although they are similar examples in some ways. They have been held together by the naked imperialism of the Great Rus People, and the Han Civilisation, respectively. I think in many ways, parts of the Russian Federation would prefer independence, and are simply too weak (and they know it) to make the attempt. and that is CERTAINLY true in China with the region of Tibet, and possibly with Xinjiang. The Uighurs of North-West China are becoming more restive under Chinese rule, that much is certain.

I certainly do not think the picture is as bleak as you describe, XENO. But I DO think things are far from perfect, perhaps even a little disastrous. Humans must, at some point, learn to live with one another. How they are going to do that is anyone's guess.

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Diego] #3248
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:13 AM
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How indeed

I'm from the "people are good, the Mass Media paints us all against each other" school of thought.

One needs not even leave this website. There have been things we've all worked out in here that had they been broadcast on tv, would have been blown way out of proportion and divided us further.

If left to our own devices and our own mediation, I believe we all want the best, even for our neighbors. I also believe that if it not for the aforementioned Mass Media, we would not be nearly as much of a dumpster fire as we currently are.

Penis.

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: JF Sabastian] #3249
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:37 AM
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I am sorry I did not mean to chock any of you with the way I spoke my mind. I have been bullied alot too but I also been around the good humans and I know how great humanity can be if it could just have the leader they need to be what they are : a great civilisation with a soul and a heart but still the elite condition fragmentation because they know that if the mass population is unified then you can take them away the power they have. Humanity is being victim of sabotage by a few of them that do everything they can to stay at the top while the rest stays at the bottom, sick and starving eating each others...


Plus qu'hier et moins que demain / More than yesterday and less than tomorrow
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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: JF Sabastian] #3253
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JF Sabastian
How indeed

I'm from the "people are good, the Mass Media paints us all against each other" school of thought.


I would not dispute that as a strong possibility, although I do not have empirical data to back up the assertion. Unless of course you are referring to the fact that our media, in the USA, is unabashedly liberal, and wants us all to be, and so makes conservatives like myself out to be evil and wicked at all times, and interested only in themselves. In this manner, the media DOES indeed pit Americans against each other.

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One needs not even leave this website. There have been things we've all worked out in here that had they been broadcast on tv, would have been blown way out of proportion and divided us further.


I think you have a point here, also. I have worked out matters so far with two people. Previously, I had been at their throats, and they at mine (separately; they are each not aware that the other was disputing with me as well as they were). I was able to work out truces with both persons, quite happily, after we realized what the other was trying to say. Had we been in the media spotlight, our differences would have been capitalized upon, and it is likely that any attempt I made, or they made, to reduce the problems between us would have been squelched.

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If left to our own devices and our own mediation, I believe we all want the best, even for our neighbors. I also believe that if it not for the aforementioned Mass Media, we would not be nearly as much of a dumpster fire as we currently are.


You may indeed have a point here. The mass media (as indicated above) does inflame passions in a way that people themselves often do not. Although I think it DOES need to be pointed out that people are capable of considerable nastiness, even WITHOUT mass media's help, and DO sometimes do things that are absolutely appalling to any civilized being, with absolutely no help from the mass media.

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Penis.


Vagina.

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Diego] #3254
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:52 AM
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Careful reference to genitalia is against the code of conduct

Attached Files sketch-1536417592809-1.png

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Xeno] #3258
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Originally Posted by Xeno
I am sorry I did not mean to chock any of you with the way I spoke my mind.


Don't worry about that. I don't believe any of us are shocked in any manner. The purpose of a forum is for people to speak their minds.

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I have been bullied alot too but I also been around the good humans and I know how great humanity can be if it could just have the leader they need to be what they are :


This statement has some validity, but I think one needs to be careful with it. Who might that "Great Leader" be? There have been men who thought they were that man, and either were very evil from the outset, or turned into very evil men as a result. Chairman Mao Tse-tung (Zedong) is a perfect example of a man who thought he was destined to lead China into a new era, away from its backward past. He did many heroic things. But power corrupted him. He turned into a megalomaniac who ended up getting 70 million people killed. In the DPRK (North Korea), their leaders even have as one of their titles "Great Leader" (it particularly applied to Kim Jong Il, the father of the currently ruling Kim Jong Un, but it loosely has applied to all three Kims), and the Kims are completely and totally brutal to their people in a manner that is almost unrivalled in history.

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a great civilisation with a soul and a heart but still the elite condition fragmentation


True.

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because they know that if the mass population is unified then you can take them away the power they have.


Also true.

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Humanity is being victim of sabotage by a few of them that do everything they can to stay at the top while the rest stays at the bottom, sick and starving eating each others...


I do not dispute this in any way. However, I suspect it is the truth on all worlds, if life on other worlds exists (and I believe it does), just as it is true in all nations here on Earth.

The problem is that, with the social systems that man has devised to eliminate the fact that some are at the top and the rest stay at the bottom, sick and starving and eating other, the situation has gotten even worse. Communism is a perfect example. Marxian Communism was designed to raise up the working class, to bring them "a share of the pie" that rightfully belonged to them.

However, Marx was interpreted by Lenin. Lenin was interpreted by Stalin. Stalin was interpreted by Mao. Mao was interpreted by Pol Pot. The end result with all this interpreting was mass slaughter on a scale that is absolutely unparalleled in human history. Millions of people tortured and killed. The death toll of Communism all over the world has been, on a conservative estimate, AT LEAST 100 million people, and on a more liberal estimate, perhaps 200 million. And each and every time, each "Great Leader" said, "it will be better, THIS time."

Non-Marxian Communism hasn't done much better. The non-Marxian Communists (perhaps you could call them Rosseauian Communists, in a sense, especially since Karl Marx hadn't even been born yet, or if he had, was still a boy) of Revolutionary France killed, just in the Great Terror alone, 40,000 (conservative estimate) Frenchmen. The guillotine worked round the clock, and never got a rest, in cities and arrondisements throughout France.

Hitler's National Socialism is commonly regarded as a form of Fascism. In reality, it was nothing of the sort. It was a non-Marxian Communism. The very name of the party indicates that. Before Hitler took it over, the party was simply called the German Worker's Party, a good Socialist name if I ever heard one. Once Hitler got hold of it, it became the National SOCIALIST German WORKER'S Party. Two good words in there indicating that it was at the very least a Socialist Party, if not a non-Marxian Communist one. Although private property was allowed in Germany, all business, and all life, was subordinated to the needs of the "German People". Although it definitely shared some elements with Fascism, it was NOT the same thing.

What one saw in Argentina under Juan Domingo Peron, Spain under Francisco Franco, and Italy under Benito Mussolini was true Fascism. Portugal ALSO had a Fascist Government, although I forget the name of the man who led it. It seems that Fascist Governments are almost the exclusive preserve of the Latin peoples. Perhaps because their heritage is that of the Roman Imperial State, which, even under the Republic had elements of Fascism, and under the Imperial State was the FIRST Fascist State in history. The Emperor Augustus Caesar instituted Fascism, more or less. The very term "fasces" comes from the bundle of wheat tied to an axe that symbolized the authority of a high-ranking Roman official toward the end of the Republic and through the Imperial period.

Fascism takes the position that all needs should be subordinated to the State, not the People. Communism looks at the People. Fascism looks at the State. Hitler's Germany was a bit of a cross-over between Fascism and Communism. But Fascism, in and of itself, doesn't usually have the high death tolls of Communism (Hitler's National Socialism took the lives of about 30 million people between the camp deaths of 11 million [six million of them Jews], and about 19 million estimated war deaths.

Without going into a description of what Fascism is, and being here all day, I can basically say that the system currently used in the United States, Britain, and other English-speaking nations is probably the best that has been found so far. Representative Republics (or Constitutional Monarchies, as the case may be) are not mass democracy, which would never work in a large State, but they DO allow the People a voice in how they are governed. They do not depend on a Great Leader to represent them, who can be all too easily corrupted by power, greed, lust, and all the other sins to which mankind is subject.

This is NOT to say that the system cannot be abused. It can and sometimes is. A perfect example of that abuse might be the Clinton family, and the Kennedy family. Nevertheless, in spite of the abuses to which the human condition is heir to, Representative Democracies, so far, at least, tend to work out the best.

Last edited by Diego; Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:28 AM.
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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Xeno] #3259
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Careful reference to genitalia is against the code of conduct.


It was intended as a joke by both of us, I am sure, but you do have a point, XENO. I think we shall both be more cautious in future.

Last edited by Diego; Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:42 AM.
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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Diego] #3260
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My civilisation we take care of our people...


Plus qu'hier et moins que demain / More than yesterday and less than tomorrow
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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Diego] #3264
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I'm sure ....haha🤣😜

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: JF Sabastian] #3265
Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:01 PM
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No kidding, we all have a home, food, education, medical attention, employment or occupation... A strong civilisation is one that is healthy and fed that doesn't have to worry for basic needs. That is how you get to be at the top!

Walk with us and we will help you make humanity great!


Plus qu'hier et moins que demain / More than yesterday and less than tomorrow
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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Xeno] #3266
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Originally Posted by Xeno
No kidding, we all have a home, food, education, medical attention, employment or occupation... A strong civilisation is one that is healthy and fed that doesn't have to worry for basic needs. That is how you get to be at the top!


I shall not dispute that what you are saying is true. The question is how you accomplish it. Humans have tried, and have not yet achieved it. Admittedly, the Scandinavian States tend to come the closest to it, but only because for the most part, they are all of one culture, one language, one religion, etc. When your entire population is of one ethno-cultural-religious-national group, and your population is small, it is easier to do this. It is much harder to accomplish when you have a huge population, or when your population is multi-lingual, multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-national, etc.

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Walk with us and we will help you make humanity great!


The question is how you will help us. Do we want to go, as a people, as a race, the way you propose. What worked for you may not work for us.

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Diego] #3268
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Don't worry it is already all figured out ;)


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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Xeno] #3271
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Diego Offline OP
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Diego  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 175
Sioux City, IA, USA
Originally Posted by Xeno
Don't worry it is already all figured out ;)


With all due respect, that is NOT an acceptable answer. As a race, as a people, we cannot accept someone else's answer for us. We must find our own way. Going with the idea that it is figured out for us is absurd.

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Re: How humans are socially engineered to accept Patriotic Tropes in Society. [Re: Diego] #3272
Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:39 PM
Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 175
Sioux City, IA, USA
D
Diego Offline OP
Lieutenant
Diego  Offline OP
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D
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 175
Sioux City, IA, USA
Originally Posted by Diego
Originally Posted by Xeno
Don't worry it is already all figured out ;)


With all due respect, that is NOT an acceptable answer. As a race, as a people, we cannot accept someone else's answer for us. We must find our own way. Going with the idea that it is figured out for us is absurd.

At present, I must log off. I have some matters to which I must attend. But I shall return later to make responses.

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